INTERVIEW ⟩ Bishop Philippe Jourdan: Pope Francis gave Estonia his last gift and then he died…

• Pope Francis had a way of saying things so gently that no one took offense.
• The pope spoke about things that mattered in people's everyday lives.
• In a short time, he completed decades-long processes involving the Catholic Church in Estonia.

On the morning of April 21, Pope Francis, the 266th bishop of Rome, passed away. In this interview, Bishop Philippe Jourdan of the Catholic Church in Estonia recalls his meetings with the pope and reveals the final gift Pope Francis gave to the Estonian Catholic Church during the last months of his life.

How did the news of the pope’s passing reach you today? What was the first memory of him that came to mind?

It happened like this: today around ten o'clock, someone from our media team called me and said, «Did you see the news that the pope has passed away?» Honestly, I was very surprised and immediately checked foreign media, especially the Italian press. They are usually very well informed, but at that point, the news had not yet broken. It came about ten or fifteen minutes later. So at first, I was a bit... I did not want to believe it, but soon enough, the sad news came, and it was even sadder because just yesterday, the pope had met with people in St. Peter’s Square.

Of course, we knew he had recently been between life and death and in hospital. It seemed like he was slowly recovering and returning to his normal life, but God decided otherwise and called him. It happened so suddenly. I remember when Pope John Paul II died, it was twenty years ago already, but he was in agony for at least a couple of weeks. Everyone was waiting, the whole world, really. And when Pope Benedict resigned, it was a very different atmosphere. But not with Pope Francis. It happened very suddenly, even though we were somewhat prepared because of his health.

Naturally, all those memories of his visit to Tallinn immediately came back. It was on September 25, 2018. That was truly an unforgettable visit, which many Estonians surely followed. When the pope was in the Rose Garden with the president of the Republic of Estonia and intellectuals; when he was at St. Peter and St. Paul's Cathedral with the poor; when he was in Charles' Church with the youth. That was a truly unforgettable encounter. And when he celebrated Mass at Freedom Square.

But one memory that came to me this morning was when he was at the airport in Tallinn, about to leave. He was saying goodbye to a well-known Estonian politician who had accompanied him, and he said, «Listen, I am going to die soon. When I die, pray for me.»That is an unusual thing to say during a state visit. But to me, it shows that Pope Francis was always ready. And he spoke about his own death with such simplicity, which was very characteristic of him. He did not make a tragedy of it, he was ready to go at any moment, and had been for years. I think those words he said seven years ago take on a special meaning today.

You saw him up close. What was he like as a communicator?

He was truly someone who gave meaning to every person he met. People like the pope or other prominent figures are constantly meeting others, and sometimes it feels like they are greeting you but already thinking about the next thing. But with Pope Francis, the beautiful thing was that when he looked at you, he really looked at you, spoke to you, and was present with you. That was wonderful.

But with Pope Francis, the beautiful thing was that when he looked at you, he really looked at you, spoke to you, and was present with you.

Another memory I have is how much he valued each person and truly wanted to touch every heart. For instance, after our meeting with the youth at Charles' Church, I told him, «Congratulations, Holy Father, it was a wonderful encounter.» The church had been packed with young people. It was an ecumenical youth meeting where a young Baptist, a young Lutheran, a young Orthodox Christian, and a young Catholic all spoke. It was very ecumenical. But then he gently corrected me and said, «Yes, it was lovely, and the atmosphere was excellent, but from what people have told me about the Estonian people and their religiosity—Estonians are not a very religious people.» I believe many of the young people at that church were not members of any church. They were not Lutheran, Orthodox, or Catholic. Just people who do not really have a church of their own, but who are searching, who came out of curiosity. And then the pope said, «Maybe it would have been good if one of them had also had the opportunity to speak, to talk about what they are searching for and what gives their life meaning.» That idea, which seems so simple, had not occurred to us before. We thought it was ecumenical, every denomination gets a voice, but we did not think about others. And that, I think, was so typical of Pope Francis: to think of those whom others might overlook. We tend to forget them.

I believe that was a beautiful example that has helped me a lot later as well. It was typical of him, every person mattered. He wanted the church to live, of course to teach and clarify its message, but also to reach every person, even those who think they are far from the church. I think that is one of his legacies. Even those who did not always agree with what Pope Francis said, admitted that this was one of his greatest strengths.

It has been seven years since the pope visited Estonia. In hindsight, what did it mean for Estonia?

I think it was important for Estonian society to see that the pope is not some distant figure who lives in a different time or place, but a person who comes to us, someone we can talk to. Someone who can speak about general issues, not only religious ones. That was significant. Of course, it did not mean everyone became Catholic or even Christian because the pope came to Tallinn, but people saw that the church is not distant, it is close. At least the pope was close to us. I think that is very important, especially in today's world. Even those not connected to the church or who do not consider themselves religious saw that the church is near. The fact that the pope was close to us seven years ago really emphasizes that.

He also had very fond memories of Estonia. For months after the visit, I know he told his aides how satisfied he was with the visit, how well people received him, and that it had gone even better than he had expected.

On September 25, 2018, Pope Francis celebrated Mass at Freedom Square in Tallinn. Thousands attended, more than the total number of Catholics in Estonia. Photo: Tairo Lutter

You mentioned the pope appeared in public just yesterday. What did you think of the fact that he still gave his traditional blessing and met with people despite being in poor health? That must say a lot about his character.

First of all, it is noteworthy that he died almost on Easter Sunday, just one day after the most important Christian holiday. Of course, it was not something he chose, but rather something God decided. Still, it is like a sign from God that the pope lived to see one last Easter Sunday and then passed away. On the other hand, it is clear that his desire to continue meeting people and speaking with them until the very last day shows his great determination. He wanted to dedicate himself to others until the end. That is beautiful. He held nothing back but gave everything to others.

Sure, someone might say he should have stayed in bed and rested instead of exhausting himself by meeting people, but I think Pope Francis was not the kind of man who wanted to stay in bed. Meeting others, his people, Catholics, believers, was what gave him strength. He did not take unnecessary risks, he knew, of course, the state of his health. He did what the doctors asked, but for him, being with others was what truly gave him strength.

It was said he would sometimes have lunch in Rome with ordinary people who could just sit next to him and talk. That is not exactly typical behavior for a pope, is it?

Yes, exactly. This simplicity and humility were very characteristic of him. I have had some contact with Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II, and they were also very approachable when you spoke to them directly. But with Pope Francis, it was even more tangible. It was so easy to talk to him. I think that was part of his message, his legacy. To be with others, to be like an equal among them.

And I think that says something about how the church itself can and should be like a mother to all, especially to those far from the church. That is what he always wanted, the church not just as a teacher, but as a mother or father who cares, who meets you where you are, who wants to be with their children. That is a way of behaving that really has an impact. One of the fruits of his papacy is that new attitude from the church toward people.

Pope Francis was a people's pope, forward-looking and reform-minded. Should we expect the church to continue in that direction now, or was he more of an exception, and we are heading back to the so-called canon, or status quo?

Pope Francis certainly embraced the heritage passed down by his predecessors, John Paul II and Benedict. So I would not say that now, with his passing, we are reverting to how things were. I think he enriched the church with something that has always been part of its tradition and teaching. When Jesus Christ walked with his apostles, the Gospel shows how simple he was. So, what Pope Francis showed us was not something brand new, but rather something that has always existed, and he embodied it in a special way. It seems to me that this way of behaving, the attitude he had, is now something the church has rediscovered. And now that it has, it is part of its DNA, if you can put it that way. So I believe his successor may be a very different person with a different character, but the values of simplicity and humility that characterized Pope Francis will surely remain. I am convinced of that!

Mass in memory of Pope Francis. Photo: Madis Veltman

It is said that every pope comes at the right time for the people. What kind of pope do you think the world needs now?

That is the hardest question. I can talk about what the last pope was like, but what the next one will be like, that is truly a mystery of God. But I believe it is often the case that the pope who emerges fits the needs of the world at that moment. Today's world clearly suffers from deep uncertainty about the future and about peace. The blockages that are emerging, the polarization. We may think it sounds a bit banal to say it, but it is a fact that we are living in a world where there is a lack of peace, and that is why people are deeply worried. It seems to me that the next pope… might need to be the one who responds to this problem. Perhaps a pope who could restore peace where peace is lacking. And if we go by the idea that each pope comes at the right time to address the issues of that moment, it seems to me the next one will have to do quite a lot to restore peace, both in people's hearts and, perhaps, in the life of nations.

What influence or role does such a major spiritual figure and adviser hold in today's world? We are again seeing strong manifestations of antisemitism and renewed debates. Pope Francis was also highly respected in the Islamic world, which is far from common. He carried that role very well. It seems we are entering a time when we especially need someone who can unite and serve as a moral example.

Yes, I do believe that, without a doubt, we need God to grant the next pope the gifts needed to unite people and bring the world together because the need for it is truly great. What we are witnessing shows how much we need someone who brings unity and peace, and I have no doubt that we will be given such a person; who exactly that is, I cannot say, but God will find him. Right now, that may be what we need most, because peace is lacking on many levels—in politics, in international relations, in interpersonal relationships. That is a real problem, and we can only hope the next pope will find a way to speak a language that unites, and knows how to bring together even those whom it seems impossible to unite.

He also had a gift for uniting people across religions. He often said, «Who am I to judge?»

Yes, he said that. I think it reflected how he approached people. Everyone has their problems, and if you come at them immediately with a tone of judgment, they will not even listen to you. I believe Pope Francis accepted people as they were, each with their own struggles, opinions, and experiences. He knew how to show openness and love.

Everyone has their problems, and if you come at them immediately with a tone of judgment, they will not even listen to you. I believe Pope Francis accepted people as they were.

He was very firm in his convictions, of course, but at the same time, he always knew how to speak even with those who had very different views, he did so with great love and fraternity, so no one ever felt offended or judged when they met Pope Francis. Of course, he had to uphold and emphasize Christ's teaching in many respects, but he did it in such a kind way that people received him very warmly. When he was here in Estonia, I was amazed at how well people responded to him, especially those who had considered themselves far from the church or religion.

You already mentioned a few, but which of the pope's teachings will you continue to carry with you?

There are many. He liked to talk about family and marriage, a lot about real, everyday issues that affect people's lives. I remember once we meeting him in Rome with other bishops. I thanked him for speaking so often about marriage to young people, to engaged couples, and to newlyweds. I mentioned some things he had said. At one point, he stopped me and said, «Thank you for saying that, but there is one piece of advice you did not mention, and to me it is very important.» Especially in family life and marriage, but not only there. He said that sometimes in marriage, or family life more broadly, «plates fly». He said, «Let them fly. Sometimes it is necessary, not too much, but a little. But the most important thing is that you never let the day end without making peace, because otherwise, the next morning you wake up with something cold in your heart, and it will make life harder.» Such a simple bit of advice: make peace before the day ends. It is not always easy, but it is very concrete and worth striving for.

Pope Francis was not someone who speculated much about highly metaphysical questions, he was interested in people's real, concrete lives. Their actual family life and relationships. He spoke about what was real. Sometimes we clergy tend to speculate or speak in abstract generalities that do not really touch people's lives. Pope Francis was the opposite—he spoke about what was real.

Even when he said, «Who am I to judge,» that did not mean church teaching was unimportant to him, he actually upheld it very confidently. But he recognized that some issues directly touch people's everyday lives. He was never abstract. He was rather concrete in what he said, and of course, some people or the media might have wanted the pope to speak more about lofty philosophical matters, but he saw his office a little differently.

Pope Francis was not someone who speculated much about highly metaphysical questions, he was interested in people's real, concrete lives.

I think it is also important that church teaching should touch on what each person experiences in their daily life. That it would give people a sense of security, and also show them what Christ's teaching says about various issues. But not just that the church should be a teacher, but that it should help like a mother or a father, who are not only teachers to their children, but truly parents. That is a big difference. A teacher teaches, and parents teach—but they also help.

You were also a kind of leader in the process that led to Estonia getting its first Catholic saint, which finally happened last year after a long wait.

Yes, it was a very long process, 21 years, and it was Pope Francis who brought it to completion, as in December, he confirmed and approved the beatification of Archbishop Profittlich. Profittlich died in the Kirov prison camp in 1942. He was the first bishop, or indeed, the first archbishop, of the Catholic Church in Estonia. The beatification will take place on May 17. Even though the pope has passed, he made all the necessary decisions in his final months, and the beatification is planned and will go ahead as scheduled.

But of course, the fact that this beatification is taking place at a time when there is no pope. This is a period the church calls sede vacante in Latin, which literally means the time when the pope's seat is vacant. It is quite rare for a beatification to take place during such a time, but it can happen. So in our case, this will be the first Catholic beatification of its kind in Estonian history.

It is indeed rare, and I am very glad the pope found time before his death to give us our first Catholic saint, because it is very important for the church.

It is indeed rare, and I am very glad the pope found time before his death to give us our first Catholic saint, because it is very important for the church. This is what the church is about—holiness. And in a way, until that holiness is visibly proclaimed, it can feel like the church talks about it, but no one reads it. The church speaks of sanctity, but no one is ever declared blessed or holy. A church is, in a sense, complete when among its members, including those who have died, there are people we can look to as examples and ask for their intercession. That is what beatification means. So yes, the pope's passing gives this beatification a sense of nostalgia and special meaning, but in any case, it is his final gift to us.

A gift is a fitting word to describe it. The timing is striking, but it is certainly another reason why Pope Francis will be remembered in Estonia.

Definitely. It is a very special time. And at least when it comes to the Catholic Church, these last months have been filled with decisions from Pope Francis that directly affected us. Last year, he elevated the Catholic Church in Estonia to the status of a diocese. It was a decision we had been waiting for for a hundred years. After that, I was formally appointed again on November 3, and immediately after that, the pope announced the beatification of our first saint.

So it has happened that all these different decisions we had waited so long for were carried out, more or less at the same time, in the last months of Pope Francis' life. Of course, it was not planned that way, God knows why it happened like this, but we can say it is remarkable that, in such a short time, the pope completed all these different processes related to the Catholic Church in Estonia. And then, after that, he died…