Kremlin adviser says society will never explicitly judge Stalin

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Photo: Jaanus Piirsalu

In Russia, Stalin can never be unequivocally judged because the great repressor also served as victorious commander in chief during Great Patriotic War, a leading Russian foreign policy expert Sergei Karaganov tells Postimees. For 18 years (1994–2012) Professor Karaganov was at helm of Council on Foreign and Defence Policy at the President. To this day, he remains a foreign policy adviser to Kremlin administration.

Let’s start with history, rather, as attitudes towards history do explain a lot. For instance, the Kremlin has not been too willing to deal with the topic of Soviet time repressions, though we are talking about vast numbers of victims. As a member of the human rights council at President Putin, you are, among all else, leading the programme for the de-Stalinisation of Russia. How will it be in Russia, then, with remembering of all the victims of political repressions?

The aim is to open a monument in Moscow (currently, there is no decent memorial to victims of repression in the capital of Russia, only the so-called Solovets Stone in central Moscow – J. P.) and next year, already, a large GULAG museum will be opened in Moscow. Also, a website (istpamyat.ru) will be opened with private funds, one to accumulate information about it from all organisations in Russia dealing with historic memory. Actually, quite a lot has been done in Russia to remember the victims of repression, over 700 memorials have been opened (most of these at private initiative – J. P.).

Maybe the memorials are plenty enough, but museums about it are few indeed in Russia – you can’t deny that!

Museums, indeed, are few. Up to now, the state did not know what to do about the subject. For a while, one of the best such museums in Russia was actually under threat, but the problem is now solved.

You mean the camp-museum Perm-36? (Even for Estonians, this is a place of significance, with Mart Niklus, Enn Tarto, Tiit Madisson, Viktor Niitsoo and Kalju Mätik among its former inmates– J. P.)

Yes, now it will be preserved, after the presidential administration intervened.

Where will the repression victims memorial be in Moscow – in a visible place?

Just at the moment there is a debate about that, the variants are many. (The main variant is to erect it quite close to the city centre, at Sakharov Prospect and Sadovaya Koltso corner which is known as a place for holding large meetings – J. P.) The opening of it may take some two-three more years, as we need to have a decent competition. In principle, I’m of the view that the monument must come for the money of the people. The state should give part of the money, but let’s say half of it – broadly speaking – should come from the people. This is not cheap, of course – tens of millions of dollars, minimum – but it would be important for the people to participate. Maybe it will be cheaper if the sculptor will donate the monument. Not long ago, a striking monument was opened in Barnaul, probably among the most beautiful in Russia, where the sculptor gave the statue as a gift. (The bronze monument depicts a son, hands tied, kneeling before his father – J. P.) On top of that, a programme has been launched in Moscow and some other cities in Russia to mark the buildings where victims of political repressions used to dwell.

I know, this is a remarkable project «The Last Address», but this is a purely private initiative, what is the role of the state here? (The idea of «The Last Address» is that, by citizen initiative, anyone may order a little plaque with the name of a person repressed by the Soviet powers and let it be attached to the wall of the building from whence he/she was carried away. The first plaques appeared on the walls at the beginning of December – J. P.)

The local authorities do have to support it, for how else may plaques be fastened to walls of buildings. I think it’s an excellent idea.

While talking about remembering the political repressions, which time are we talking about? The whole Soviet Union period? 

Yes, starting with the revolution. (Prof Karaganov is meaning the October 1917 revolution by the communists – J. P.) Of course, there’s several philosophical questions that have still not been finally settled.

Such as?

Well, for instance, there were the repression victims among the Red as well. Like the Latvian Red Riflemen wiped away lots and lots of people, but were afterwards killed also. Are they victims of repressions as well, or not? Very many people think the Reds should not be counted among victims.

What is well known if the wave of terror organised Stalin in the Soviet Union at the end of the 1930ies, but what were the other major waves of repression?

The first major wave of victims was, of course, the red terror during the civil war. (Russia had civil war in 1917–1923 – J. P.) Again, there was white terror then as well – how do we treat that? After the civil war, there came the wave of wiping out Russian orthodox clergy, but other clergy as well. At the same time, former intelligentsia, officers, members of the court were being deprived of all rights which later led to them perishing or slaughtered. That all happened in the 1920ies. From then on, at the beginning of the 1930ies, Russia obviously suffered heavy losses through the forced collectivisation and golodomor.

During that time, how many victims are we talking about?

The estimates vary, but five-six million for sure. We cannot give precise figures, all we have is demographic estimates. After that, we had the great repressions of 1937 – 1938. Then it begun to wane, but essentially the repressions continued, dissidents were being jailed.

How many people were shot in 1937–1938?

We don’t know, factually. Pursuant to the lists, it had to be 800,000 – 900,000. Often, however, no lists remained from the killings. On the other hand, many were expelled, deported, but in reality they just perished.

How many perished in the GULAG camps?

No-one knows exactly. Let me repeat, again: we can only assess the amount of repression victims according to demographical data. They were no less than the Great Patriotic War victims.  

That’d be to the tune of 25 million, at least?

Yes, to the tune of 20 million. It was an altogether terrible blow for the people. And, add to that the Estonians, the Latvians and other nations that were deported to places altogether horrible. Many perished there, though not directly killed.

Could the great monument planned to Moscow be also named a memorial for the victims of communism?

It’s not just the issue of communism. It’s the issue that the nation departed from God. The Latvian riflemen who shot people, were they true communists at heart? These were people who, during the civil war, had lost moral authorities.

It’s nice, of course, that at long last the Russian capital city will feature a monument like this, but why was it not opened... ten years ago, say? I’s quarter of a century soon since the Soviet Union fell apart.

It should have come earlier… Well with likeminded people I did raise the issue ten years ago, that we need this for the internal development of the state. To my mind, this is an unavoidable process for the healing of the society. Many in the society still do not want to see this terrible tragedy. Others are afraid that once we raise the issue ourselves, those that are against Russia will seize the opportunity. Which, by the way, is not right.

Most of these repression victims were directly victims of Stalin. You want to erect them monuments and museums, and yet at the same time the cult of Staling keeps on increasing in Russia. On Stalin’s 135th birthday, perm had city buses riding around with big portraits of him, same in Volgograd with the celebrations of the battle at Stalingrad etc.

In Russia, Stalin can never be unequivocally assessed as he was the commander in chief at the Great Patriotic War and did restore the state after the devastating war. I have an unequivocal attitude towards him, but the society cannot have it.

But, if that be the case, will the Russian people understand at all why the monument, why the museum?

The programme is meant for decades, if not for longer, to explain to Russians that terrible 20th century which, easily, we might not have survived. I can only explain it by God finally forgiving Russia and thus we survived.

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